Ron
Besser's reply to my last blog
(I told him I am going to read this over about 50 times
until it sinks in. Like him, I love thinking about God. I do it all the time. I
just hope I don't drive other people round the bend.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Dear Friends,
This thread is really started by John Thwaytes who wrote a blog on this theme. His blog can be read by following this link and I think he did a great job on an almost impossible theme to justify with an easily understood answer. He gave it an excellent shot, and it is to this "shot" of his I would like to respond to as follows:
Disputed Questions by John Thwaytes
Link: https://www.box.com/s/mpx05xxu0l8bcm9w4ve3
October 22, 2012
Hi John,
I enjoyed your dissertation very much, and I find you have hit the nail on the head several times from different perspectives of thought.
If you do not mind, I would like to add an appreciative comment or two for you to ponder. As much has come through me (the horses mouth in appearance but not in fact), I too have a perspective to add to what you have already said.
In this perspective I would like to draw your attention to the existential Deities being the Trinity Creators of the experiential Deities as a way to diversify and unify the Master Universe at the same time. That is one point. Father’s intervention is always through his agents, and even the Fatherly fiats are placed on the table for action by the Supreme, Ultimate, and Absolute even before they reach the level of a local universe to directly pursue.
The second point is that the experiential Deities are sub-absolute agents of the Deity of The First Source and Center as God the Supreme is agent for the detailed outpouring of thought and material energy fromParadise into the local
universes. In this the Supreme is found on Paradise
as a Creator in spite of the Urantia Book’s insistence that God the Supreme
does not create. It is not an error per se in the text, but it is
confusional thinking to the lower levels of philosophical principle. What
must be made clear is there is no need for Father to stir himself outside of Paradise when he has all he needs to command his choice
for action in any given circumstance.
There is a third difficult philosophical proposition that man raises which needs to be forever eliminated in his thinking. Does God make any direct intervention from the level ofParadise onto the finite sphere of life? The answer
is yes, but the yes has to be qualified to under what circumstance that
intervention may take place.
Direct intervention first has to be understood in two contexts. These contexts exist in the antipodal synthesis of the universal and the personal. God the Father exists as both the universal and personal and their synthesis of each into the unity of creation, and this occurs through the Deity Absolute as well as through the experiential Deities of the Supreme, Ultimate and Absolute.
Father makes a distinction between what is a universal act and what constitutes a personal act. He therefore wills their use to Him in two different ways for intervention purposes. In the universal, Father wills through his advisors and agents. In the personal universe, he is direct. The personal life of an ascender is the direct action of Father approving the rise of man to spirit, and that must not be confused with the decision of Father not to propose that the ascender be placed in jurisdictional disputes between the Supreme and the Ultimate. Father’s act of approval to allow individual ascension is an act of Fatherly will much like a human will decide to open a door to allow passage of a friend. This will of his to open these doors is never made for everyone at the same time, but individually and personally.
The Trinity, while universal, can act personally in the name of universal needs. This is harder to understand only because it is done directly and personally by the Father’s decision to allow the universal mode of need to find and EMBRACE the right personality for the moment of need, and then bring them together as a new reality that now is capable, through the embrace of the Trinity, to discharge the duty the Trinity finds essential to perform outside of Paradise.
In summary, Father can act as he chooses, and he chooses to act through his Sons and Daughters of time while allowing his prerogatives of compossibility to precede the Sons and Daughters of time. Father acts universally through the Deity Absolute (the personal Absolute) and the Unqualified Absolute (the non-Deified Absolute) to establish what will be, and through the Trinity to maintain what is. It is through the third potential Absolute, the Universal Absolute, that Father relieves the tensions created by change and the heartless resolution of sin and iniquity.
I wish to spend a few moments with the word compossibility because it is the evidence of the forces at work that actually pre-conditions future acts of intervention of God in the universal and personal sense of intervention.
Compossibility is only mentioned once in the Urantia Book, but that belies its importance to the meaning of God acts, for it is the word expression which limits or expands the degree of action in any given circumstance the Father or any of his Coordinates will act. Compossibility is the principle that all acts must not contradict all previous acts. Compossibility is operative on all levels of reality from the finite to the infinite and everything in between. God is consistent and his consistency is defined in his willingness to review every potential act with the purpose of all previous actions.
When the Father decides that Urantia must be cleansed, he has in his quiver of arrows the decision of past examples of when cleansing has to be applied. In this he infinitely reviews the repercussions of all previous cleansing acts and decides in the case of Urantia that it can be cleared of evil and sin in accordance with all sessions of thought he held before the judges of the Trinity. Exceptions are noted and understood about precise approaches to cleansing, but the totality of cleansing in the Urantia sense of its need exists not in the time approach, but in the transcendental mode of expression of thought without time.
The absonite universe both in Havona and as proposed in the four outer space levels works through the coordinate view of the Paradise Deities in liaison with the powers of Ultimacy. Ultimacy depends on a previous understanding expressed in Havona that all things are created to become perfect, and that which can not be made perfect must be eliminated or changed so that they may become perfect.
God the Ultimate is already coordinating with the Supreme in time although God the Ultimate will express time meanings in a timeless universe. Sin and iniquity are pleasure symbols of direct interventions of useless extensions of the so-called freedoms found in a time universe which time can not limit its errors by fiat. To do so in time would create a ceaseless extension of Father into the realms of justice he has chosen NOT to intervene with. God the Ultimate does not deal with justice, but he does deal with the heart of thought and matter the Supreme has prepared for him in time. Thought and matter are what must be applied to Urantia to overcome its inability to find justice over why the development of sin and iniquity has become so pervasive.
Thought and matter of the Ultimate in Havona preceded the development of sin and iniquity on Urantia, and it is from Havona that the proper thought and matter must be brought to bear on Urantia. Because Havona exists as the primary example of perfection to the existential Deities, they use Havona where all reality levels except the infinite are found living there. Urantia has a date with infamy only because Havona exists to protect Father’s will from extinction in any time universe. Therefore Havona realities of truth and principle have to be expressed through a time mechanism the Father relies upon as the Master Spirits. It is they, the Master Spirits, who sit astride the Havona reality and pursue the heart of thought and matter to time through the love of the Father and the Son and the Spirit, individually and through the Trinity.
All of these explanations have to do with finding a way to say that the Father has willed intervention, and that intervention is a direct response to the failure of Urantia to come to heal itself through the proper channels of time. Father’s will finds the errors of time to be unpleasant but not culpable. They are not time features, sin and iniquity, by any imaginable necessity, but occur by developmental error. Havona holds the proper credentials to allow error to flourish as a lesson of unimpeachable worth for correctional means to become apparent, but sin and error are never meant to be ensconced in time as a necessary adjunct to the provisions of thought and matter the Supreme must institutionalize as the time contributions to the Master Universe.
Urantia, because of what has happened to it and what it became because of what happened, will serve as a laboratory for all future studies about time mistakes. The planet’s existence is sufficient to call upon the Paradise Deities to reveal how they go about confining error to the experiments of time, and will further determine just how much they will reveal about the outcome of the Urantia experiment for all future time. The Deity Absolute is not a quintessential afterthought of the Father to allow this entity a pleasurable moment of reprise over faults of time, but is an active member of the family of spirit on Urantia just because the potentials of the Deity Absolute are found directly in the Eternal Son’s Spirit Directive Number 55.
Michael of Nebadon with the Mother Spirit are quite able to concede they have requested help to overcome the Urantia mess, but they are also very able to be resident in the Father’s bosom of contrary views of how to do the correction and remain the center of Nebadon’s spiritual existence.
Father’s intervention is direct in the sense it is his will that pervades Urantia today. That does not mean the united wills of the Trinity are absent, but that the priority of will expression is made first through the Father’s view that he alone knows more about Urantia’s problems than the combined powers and forces of all other universe agencies. In many respects I am told this approach by Father to Urantia is just about unique to all creation as it combines the angst of thoughtless development coupled with the destruction of a material living species, homo sapiens.
I do not think there are any personalities resident on Urantia who would not trade places with us if they realized that our lives are forfeit by Father’s intervention only to be resuscitated by the same Father who holds that the mercy of the Son precedes the heartless revisions of his to destroy the monster before it consumes anything else in Nebadon. Nonetheless, we must assume that the doings of the Father through the direct intervention of his will, will be applied through the agencies of Nebadon and aided by the time Voices of the Master Spirits.
In this I am certain that no one will ever compliment me for making this easy, but at the same time I confess I wrote this with the direct permission of the Father himself, and that I was aided and abetted in these remarks by Master Spirit Seven, my friend AYA, who so often makes his appearance at my side to clear my thinking well enough that I do not stumble into the dark passages of thought Lucifer so often did when explaining his desire to do good at the cost of his annihilation for thinking and doing what the Father considers an anathema to time development and space expansion of the Supreme.
Thank you John for inspiring this response from me as I too enjoy the exercise of thought on levels I am told we should not have but by necessity we must pursue for an eternity of correcting times on high.
Ron Besser"
This thread is really started by John Thwaytes who wrote a blog on this theme. His blog can be read by following this link and I think he did a great job on an almost impossible theme to justify with an easily understood answer. He gave it an excellent shot, and it is to this "shot" of his I would like to respond to as follows:
Disputed Questions by John Thwaytes
Link: https://www.box.com/s/mpx05xxu0l8bcm9w4ve3
October 22, 2012
Hi John,
I enjoyed your dissertation very much, and I find you have hit the nail on the head several times from different perspectives of thought.
If you do not mind, I would like to add an appreciative comment or two for you to ponder. As much has come through me (the horses mouth in appearance but not in fact), I too have a perspective to add to what you have already said.
In this perspective I would like to draw your attention to the existential Deities being the Trinity Creators of the experiential Deities as a way to diversify and unify the Master Universe at the same time. That is one point. Father’s intervention is always through his agents, and even the Fatherly fiats are placed on the table for action by the Supreme, Ultimate, and Absolute even before they reach the level of a local universe to directly pursue.
The second point is that the experiential Deities are sub-absolute agents of the Deity of The First Source and Center as God the Supreme is agent for the detailed outpouring of thought and material energy from
There is a third difficult philosophical proposition that man raises which needs to be forever eliminated in his thinking. Does God make any direct intervention from the level of
Direct intervention first has to be understood in two contexts. These contexts exist in the antipodal synthesis of the universal and the personal. God the Father exists as both the universal and personal and their synthesis of each into the unity of creation, and this occurs through the Deity Absolute as well as through the experiential Deities of the Supreme, Ultimate and Absolute.
Father makes a distinction between what is a universal act and what constitutes a personal act. He therefore wills their use to Him in two different ways for intervention purposes. In the universal, Father wills through his advisors and agents. In the personal universe, he is direct. The personal life of an ascender is the direct action of Father approving the rise of man to spirit, and that must not be confused with the decision of Father not to propose that the ascender be placed in jurisdictional disputes between the Supreme and the Ultimate. Father’s act of approval to allow individual ascension is an act of Fatherly will much like a human will decide to open a door to allow passage of a friend. This will of his to open these doors is never made for everyone at the same time, but individually and personally.
The Trinity, while universal, can act personally in the name of universal needs. This is harder to understand only because it is done directly and personally by the Father’s decision to allow the universal mode of need to find and EMBRACE the right personality for the moment of need, and then bring them together as a new reality that now is capable, through the embrace of the Trinity, to discharge the duty the Trinity finds essential to perform outside of Paradise.
In summary, Father can act as he chooses, and he chooses to act through his Sons and Daughters of time while allowing his prerogatives of compossibility to precede the Sons and Daughters of time. Father acts universally through the Deity Absolute (the personal Absolute) and the Unqualified Absolute (the non-Deified Absolute) to establish what will be, and through the Trinity to maintain what is. It is through the third potential Absolute, the Universal Absolute, that Father relieves the tensions created by change and the heartless resolution of sin and iniquity.
I wish to spend a few moments with the word compossibility because it is the evidence of the forces at work that actually pre-conditions future acts of intervention of God in the universal and personal sense of intervention.
Compossibility is only mentioned once in the Urantia Book, but that belies its importance to the meaning of God acts, for it is the word expression which limits or expands the degree of action in any given circumstance the Father or any of his Coordinates will act. Compossibility is the principle that all acts must not contradict all previous acts. Compossibility is operative on all levels of reality from the finite to the infinite and everything in between. God is consistent and his consistency is defined in his willingness to review every potential act with the purpose of all previous actions.
When the Father decides that Urantia must be cleansed, he has in his quiver of arrows the decision of past examples of when cleansing has to be applied. In this he infinitely reviews the repercussions of all previous cleansing acts and decides in the case of Urantia that it can be cleared of evil and sin in accordance with all sessions of thought he held before the judges of the Trinity. Exceptions are noted and understood about precise approaches to cleansing, but the totality of cleansing in the Urantia sense of its need exists not in the time approach, but in the transcendental mode of expression of thought without time.
The absonite universe both in Havona and as proposed in the four outer space levels works through the coordinate view of the Paradise Deities in liaison with the powers of Ultimacy. Ultimacy depends on a previous understanding expressed in Havona that all things are created to become perfect, and that which can not be made perfect must be eliminated or changed so that they may become perfect.
God the Ultimate is already coordinating with the Supreme in time although God the Ultimate will express time meanings in a timeless universe. Sin and iniquity are pleasure symbols of direct interventions of useless extensions of the so-called freedoms found in a time universe which time can not limit its errors by fiat. To do so in time would create a ceaseless extension of Father into the realms of justice he has chosen NOT to intervene with. God the Ultimate does not deal with justice, but he does deal with the heart of thought and matter the Supreme has prepared for him in time. Thought and matter are what must be applied to Urantia to overcome its inability to find justice over why the development of sin and iniquity has become so pervasive.
Thought and matter of the Ultimate in Havona preceded the development of sin and iniquity on Urantia, and it is from Havona that the proper thought and matter must be brought to bear on Urantia. Because Havona exists as the primary example of perfection to the existential Deities, they use Havona where all reality levels except the infinite are found living there. Urantia has a date with infamy only because Havona exists to protect Father’s will from extinction in any time universe. Therefore Havona realities of truth and principle have to be expressed through a time mechanism the Father relies upon as the Master Spirits. It is they, the Master Spirits, who sit astride the Havona reality and pursue the heart of thought and matter to time through the love of the Father and the Son and the Spirit, individually and through the Trinity.
All of these explanations have to do with finding a way to say that the Father has willed intervention, and that intervention is a direct response to the failure of Urantia to come to heal itself through the proper channels of time. Father’s will finds the errors of time to be unpleasant but not culpable. They are not time features, sin and iniquity, by any imaginable necessity, but occur by developmental error. Havona holds the proper credentials to allow error to flourish as a lesson of unimpeachable worth for correctional means to become apparent, but sin and error are never meant to be ensconced in time as a necessary adjunct to the provisions of thought and matter the Supreme must institutionalize as the time contributions to the Master Universe.
Urantia, because of what has happened to it and what it became because of what happened, will serve as a laboratory for all future studies about time mistakes. The planet’s existence is sufficient to call upon the Paradise Deities to reveal how they go about confining error to the experiments of time, and will further determine just how much they will reveal about the outcome of the Urantia experiment for all future time. The Deity Absolute is not a quintessential afterthought of the Father to allow this entity a pleasurable moment of reprise over faults of time, but is an active member of the family of spirit on Urantia just because the potentials of the Deity Absolute are found directly in the Eternal Son’s Spirit Directive Number 55.
Michael of Nebadon with the Mother Spirit are quite able to concede they have requested help to overcome the Urantia mess, but they are also very able to be resident in the Father’s bosom of contrary views of how to do the correction and remain the center of Nebadon’s spiritual existence.
Father’s intervention is direct in the sense it is his will that pervades Urantia today. That does not mean the united wills of the Trinity are absent, but that the priority of will expression is made first through the Father’s view that he alone knows more about Urantia’s problems than the combined powers and forces of all other universe agencies. In many respects I am told this approach by Father to Urantia is just about unique to all creation as it combines the angst of thoughtless development coupled with the destruction of a material living species, homo sapiens.
I do not think there are any personalities resident on Urantia who would not trade places with us if they realized that our lives are forfeit by Father’s intervention only to be resuscitated by the same Father who holds that the mercy of the Son precedes the heartless revisions of his to destroy the monster before it consumes anything else in Nebadon. Nonetheless, we must assume that the doings of the Father through the direct intervention of his will, will be applied through the agencies of Nebadon and aided by the time Voices of the Master Spirits.
In this I am certain that no one will ever compliment me for making this easy, but at the same time I confess I wrote this with the direct permission of the Father himself, and that I was aided and abetted in these remarks by Master Spirit Seven, my friend AYA, who so often makes his appearance at my side to clear my thinking well enough that I do not stumble into the dark passages of thought Lucifer so often did when explaining his desire to do good at the cost of his annihilation for thinking and doing what the Father considers an anathema to time development and space expansion of the Supreme.
Thank you John for inspiring this response from me as I too enjoy the exercise of thought on levels I am told we should not have but by necessity we must pursue for an eternity of correcting times on high.
Ron Besser"
Thanks a whole lot Ron. I don't exactly follow the guru
approach, but if I did, you would be my guru.
Signing off at Malbazar on October 23rd 2012
John Robert Thwaytes
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